Under what conditions would I NOT add my Proficiency Bonus to a Spell Attack Roll (or Saving Throw DC)?How do I calculate if a spell hits and how much damage it does?What is the spell attack bonus and spell save DC of a Thief using the Use Magic Device feature?Can an Eldritch Knight use the bonus-action attack granted by War Magic before casting the spell as an action?How do monsters make saving throws?When do I roll a Saving Throw?What is the Wand of Paralysis' Saving Throw?Does proficiency with tools add to a check with a skill you are already proficient in?Should rolling a 1 on a spell saving throw double that spell's damage?How does Compelled Duel work with the saving throws?When throwing a melee weapon without the thrown property is the proficiency bonus still added to the attack?

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Under what conditions would I NOT add my Proficiency Bonus to a Spell Attack Roll (or Saving Throw DC)?


How do I calculate if a spell hits and how much damage it does?What is the spell attack bonus and spell save DC of a Thief using the Use Magic Device feature?Can an Eldritch Knight use the bonus-action attack granted by War Magic before casting the spell as an action?How do monsters make saving throws?When do I roll a Saving Throw?What is the Wand of Paralysis' Saving Throw?Does proficiency with tools add to a check with a skill you are already proficient in?Should rolling a 1 on a spell saving throw double that spell's damage?How does Compelled Duel work with the saving throws?When throwing a melee weapon without the thrown property is the proficiency bonus still added to the attack?













17












$begingroup$


For physical attacks, the scenario where you don't add your Proficiency bonus to an attack roll is relatively clear-cut: when you don't have proficiency in a weapon. If you're a Sorcerer trying to wield a Rapier, with a DEX bonus of +3, then your Attack Roll is +3; no Proficiency added.



However, for spellcasters, I can't find a single scenario where the Proficiency Bonus does not get added to a spell, either to the Attack Roll or the corresponding Saving Throw DC, except, of course, for spells which don't have an Attack Roll or Saving Throw.



Obviously, I respect the balancing implications of this choice: if, for example, things like Racial feature spells/cantrips didn't scale with a character's Proficiency bonus, they would end up being very weak as a character leveled up, whereas with the proficiency bonus, a Level 20 Fighter casting their racial spell Burning Hands can at least expect to challenge the Saving Throw capabilities of their targets, even if the damage is pretty pitiful relative to the kinds of creatures that would pose a meaningful challenge at their level.



But it is strange to me that there appears to be an entire class of features in the game where there's no variance as to whether a character's Proficiency Bonus ought to be added, or not. So it begs the question:



Does there exist some corner-case scenario in 5th Edition D&D where a character would not add their Proficiency Bonus to the Attack Roll or Saving Throw DC of a spell they cast? Or does such a scenario simply not exist?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    17












    $begingroup$


    For physical attacks, the scenario where you don't add your Proficiency bonus to an attack roll is relatively clear-cut: when you don't have proficiency in a weapon. If you're a Sorcerer trying to wield a Rapier, with a DEX bonus of +3, then your Attack Roll is +3; no Proficiency added.



    However, for spellcasters, I can't find a single scenario where the Proficiency Bonus does not get added to a spell, either to the Attack Roll or the corresponding Saving Throw DC, except, of course, for spells which don't have an Attack Roll or Saving Throw.



    Obviously, I respect the balancing implications of this choice: if, for example, things like Racial feature spells/cantrips didn't scale with a character's Proficiency bonus, they would end up being very weak as a character leveled up, whereas with the proficiency bonus, a Level 20 Fighter casting their racial spell Burning Hands can at least expect to challenge the Saving Throw capabilities of their targets, even if the damage is pretty pitiful relative to the kinds of creatures that would pose a meaningful challenge at their level.



    But it is strange to me that there appears to be an entire class of features in the game where there's no variance as to whether a character's Proficiency Bonus ought to be added, or not. So it begs the question:



    Does there exist some corner-case scenario in 5th Edition D&D where a character would not add their Proficiency Bonus to the Attack Roll or Saving Throw DC of a spell they cast? Or does such a scenario simply not exist?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      17












      17








      17





      $begingroup$


      For physical attacks, the scenario where you don't add your Proficiency bonus to an attack roll is relatively clear-cut: when you don't have proficiency in a weapon. If you're a Sorcerer trying to wield a Rapier, with a DEX bonus of +3, then your Attack Roll is +3; no Proficiency added.



      However, for spellcasters, I can't find a single scenario where the Proficiency Bonus does not get added to a spell, either to the Attack Roll or the corresponding Saving Throw DC, except, of course, for spells which don't have an Attack Roll or Saving Throw.



      Obviously, I respect the balancing implications of this choice: if, for example, things like Racial feature spells/cantrips didn't scale with a character's Proficiency bonus, they would end up being very weak as a character leveled up, whereas with the proficiency bonus, a Level 20 Fighter casting their racial spell Burning Hands can at least expect to challenge the Saving Throw capabilities of their targets, even if the damage is pretty pitiful relative to the kinds of creatures that would pose a meaningful challenge at their level.



      But it is strange to me that there appears to be an entire class of features in the game where there's no variance as to whether a character's Proficiency Bonus ought to be added, or not. So it begs the question:



      Does there exist some corner-case scenario in 5th Edition D&D where a character would not add their Proficiency Bonus to the Attack Roll or Saving Throw DC of a spell they cast? Or does such a scenario simply not exist?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      For physical attacks, the scenario where you don't add your Proficiency bonus to an attack roll is relatively clear-cut: when you don't have proficiency in a weapon. If you're a Sorcerer trying to wield a Rapier, with a DEX bonus of +3, then your Attack Roll is +3; no Proficiency added.



      However, for spellcasters, I can't find a single scenario where the Proficiency Bonus does not get added to a spell, either to the Attack Roll or the corresponding Saving Throw DC, except, of course, for spells which don't have an Attack Roll or Saving Throw.



      Obviously, I respect the balancing implications of this choice: if, for example, things like Racial feature spells/cantrips didn't scale with a character's Proficiency bonus, they would end up being very weak as a character leveled up, whereas with the proficiency bonus, a Level 20 Fighter casting their racial spell Burning Hands can at least expect to challenge the Saving Throw capabilities of their targets, even if the damage is pretty pitiful relative to the kinds of creatures that would pose a meaningful challenge at their level.



      But it is strange to me that there appears to be an entire class of features in the game where there's no variance as to whether a character's Proficiency Bonus ought to be added, or not. So it begs the question:



      Does there exist some corner-case scenario in 5th Edition D&D where a character would not add their Proficiency Bonus to the Attack Roll or Saving Throw DC of a spell they cast? Or does such a scenario simply not exist?







      dnd-5e spells proficiency






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Mar 7 at 19:01









      V2Blast

      25k383155




      25k383155










      asked Mar 7 at 18:42









      XiremaXirema

      21.5k263126




      21.5k263126




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

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          23












          $begingroup$

          I can't provide evidence to confirm a negative, but in my experience (thousands of hours of DMing and playing), such a scenario does not exist. If a character is casting a spell personally rather than via an item, they will use their proficiency bonus. Some items - scrolls and wands are the most common - have a fixed DC; the character activating the item has no effect.



          By contrast, lacking the other half of that equation can exist. A Thief Rogue with Use Magic Device does not have a spellcasting ability, and therefore uses +0 for magic items that may require one.



          From the Basic Rules, Chapter 14, Activating an Item, Spells:




          A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
            $endgroup$
            – Yakk
            Mar 8 at 16:28










          • $begingroup$
            @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
            $endgroup$
            – T.J.L.
            Mar 8 at 16:29


















          11












          $begingroup$

          Spell scrolls have fixed attack/save modifiers



          The attack modifier or saving throw DC of a spell cast from a scroll is dependent on the level of the scroll, rather than the spellcasting ability or proficiency bonus of the caster. Looking at the modifiers given for each scroll level, they seem more or less in line with what would be expected from the proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier for a caster whose highest level spell slots are of that level. So the intent seems to be that a spell scroll is using someone's proficiency bonus, it just isn't using yours.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




















            5












            $begingroup$

            No such scenario exists for known, prepared, or innate spells.



            If a spellcaster is intrinsically capable of casting a spell due to a class or racial feature that lets them know or prepare a spell or cast it innately, their proficiency bonus always applies to their spell attack bonus and spell save DC. For magic items or spell scrolls, there may be a fixed bonus that doesn't benefit from proficiency (such as +7 for a 3rd level spell scroll).



            Note that with weapons, if you're proficient you can attack well; if you're not proficient, you can attack poorly, but nonetheless you can attack. With spells, however, either you can cast the spell or you simply can't at all. There's not really such a thing as being able to "sort of" cast a spell, except the scenarios covered in the previous paragraph.



            Notably, spells such as counterspell and dispel magic require spellcasting ability checks, which by default no spellcaster is proficient in. However, Abjuration Wizards of 10th level get to add their proficiency bonus even to those checks. This implies that Abjurers are so good at those spells that they have become proficient in executing them better than other wizards, yet other wizards can still execute them to lesser effect. These aren't attacks or saves, but they indicate a niche where proficiency doesn't usually apply but could under certain circumstances.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












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              23












              $begingroup$

              I can't provide evidence to confirm a negative, but in my experience (thousands of hours of DMing and playing), such a scenario does not exist. If a character is casting a spell personally rather than via an item, they will use their proficiency bonus. Some items - scrolls and wands are the most common - have a fixed DC; the character activating the item has no effect.



              By contrast, lacking the other half of that equation can exist. A Thief Rogue with Use Magic Device does not have a spellcasting ability, and therefore uses +0 for magic items that may require one.



              From the Basic Rules, Chapter 14, Activating an Item, Spells:




              A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.







              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
                $endgroup$
                – Yakk
                Mar 8 at 16:28










              • $begingroup$
                @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – T.J.L.
                Mar 8 at 16:29















              23












              $begingroup$

              I can't provide evidence to confirm a negative, but in my experience (thousands of hours of DMing and playing), such a scenario does not exist. If a character is casting a spell personally rather than via an item, they will use their proficiency bonus. Some items - scrolls and wands are the most common - have a fixed DC; the character activating the item has no effect.



              By contrast, lacking the other half of that equation can exist. A Thief Rogue with Use Magic Device does not have a spellcasting ability, and therefore uses +0 for magic items that may require one.



              From the Basic Rules, Chapter 14, Activating an Item, Spells:




              A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.







              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
                $endgroup$
                – Yakk
                Mar 8 at 16:28










              • $begingroup$
                @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – T.J.L.
                Mar 8 at 16:29













              23












              23








              23





              $begingroup$

              I can't provide evidence to confirm a negative, but in my experience (thousands of hours of DMing and playing), such a scenario does not exist. If a character is casting a spell personally rather than via an item, they will use their proficiency bonus. Some items - scrolls and wands are the most common - have a fixed DC; the character activating the item has no effect.



              By contrast, lacking the other half of that equation can exist. A Thief Rogue with Use Magic Device does not have a spellcasting ability, and therefore uses +0 for magic items that may require one.



              From the Basic Rules, Chapter 14, Activating an Item, Spells:




              A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.







              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              I can't provide evidence to confirm a negative, but in my experience (thousands of hours of DMing and playing), such a scenario does not exist. If a character is casting a spell personally rather than via an item, they will use their proficiency bonus. Some items - scrolls and wands are the most common - have a fixed DC; the character activating the item has no effect.



              By contrast, lacking the other half of that equation can exist. A Thief Rogue with Use Magic Device does not have a spellcasting ability, and therefore uses +0 for magic items that may require one.



              From the Basic Rules, Chapter 14, Activating an Item, Spells:




              A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.








              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Mar 7 at 19:02

























              answered Mar 7 at 18:47









              T.J.L.T.J.L.

              33.1k5118177




              33.1k5118177











              • $begingroup$
                Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
                $endgroup$
                – Yakk
                Mar 8 at 16:28










              • $begingroup$
                @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – T.J.L.
                Mar 8 at 16:29
















              • $begingroup$
                Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
                $endgroup$
                – Yakk
                Mar 8 at 16:28










              • $begingroup$
                @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – T.J.L.
                Mar 8 at 16:29















              $begingroup$
              Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Mar 8 at 16:28




              $begingroup$
              Humorous side effect: A wizard with 8 int is actually worse at spellcasting than someone who isn't a wizard.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Mar 8 at 16:28












              $begingroup$
              @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              Mar 8 at 16:29




              $begingroup$
              @Yakk Worse at using magic items, anyway.
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              Mar 8 at 16:29













              11












              $begingroup$

              Spell scrolls have fixed attack/save modifiers



              The attack modifier or saving throw DC of a spell cast from a scroll is dependent on the level of the scroll, rather than the spellcasting ability or proficiency bonus of the caster. Looking at the modifiers given for each scroll level, they seem more or less in line with what would be expected from the proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier for a caster whose highest level spell slots are of that level. So the intent seems to be that a spell scroll is using someone's proficiency bonus, it just isn't using yours.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                11












                $begingroup$

                Spell scrolls have fixed attack/save modifiers



                The attack modifier or saving throw DC of a spell cast from a scroll is dependent on the level of the scroll, rather than the spellcasting ability or proficiency bonus of the caster. Looking at the modifiers given for each scroll level, they seem more or less in line with what would be expected from the proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier for a caster whose highest level spell slots are of that level. So the intent seems to be that a spell scroll is using someone's proficiency bonus, it just isn't using yours.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  11












                  11








                  11





                  $begingroup$

                  Spell scrolls have fixed attack/save modifiers



                  The attack modifier or saving throw DC of a spell cast from a scroll is dependent on the level of the scroll, rather than the spellcasting ability or proficiency bonus of the caster. Looking at the modifiers given for each scroll level, they seem more or less in line with what would be expected from the proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier for a caster whose highest level spell slots are of that level. So the intent seems to be that a spell scroll is using someone's proficiency bonus, it just isn't using yours.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Spell scrolls have fixed attack/save modifiers



                  The attack modifier or saving throw DC of a spell cast from a scroll is dependent on the level of the scroll, rather than the spellcasting ability or proficiency bonus of the caster. Looking at the modifiers given for each scroll level, they seem more or less in line with what would be expected from the proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier for a caster whose highest level spell slots are of that level. So the intent seems to be that a spell scroll is using someone's proficiency bonus, it just isn't using yours.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Mar 7 at 19:44

























                  answered Mar 7 at 18:54









                  Ryan ThompsonRyan Thompson

                  10.3k23178




                  10.3k23178





















                      5












                      $begingroup$

                      No such scenario exists for known, prepared, or innate spells.



                      If a spellcaster is intrinsically capable of casting a spell due to a class or racial feature that lets them know or prepare a spell or cast it innately, their proficiency bonus always applies to their spell attack bonus and spell save DC. For magic items or spell scrolls, there may be a fixed bonus that doesn't benefit from proficiency (such as +7 for a 3rd level spell scroll).



                      Note that with weapons, if you're proficient you can attack well; if you're not proficient, you can attack poorly, but nonetheless you can attack. With spells, however, either you can cast the spell or you simply can't at all. There's not really such a thing as being able to "sort of" cast a spell, except the scenarios covered in the previous paragraph.



                      Notably, spells such as counterspell and dispel magic require spellcasting ability checks, which by default no spellcaster is proficient in. However, Abjuration Wizards of 10th level get to add their proficiency bonus even to those checks. This implies that Abjurers are so good at those spells that they have become proficient in executing them better than other wizards, yet other wizards can still execute them to lesser effect. These aren't attacks or saves, but they indicate a niche where proficiency doesn't usually apply but could under certain circumstances.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$

















                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        No such scenario exists for known, prepared, or innate spells.



                        If a spellcaster is intrinsically capable of casting a spell due to a class or racial feature that lets them know or prepare a spell or cast it innately, their proficiency bonus always applies to their spell attack bonus and spell save DC. For magic items or spell scrolls, there may be a fixed bonus that doesn't benefit from proficiency (such as +7 for a 3rd level spell scroll).



                        Note that with weapons, if you're proficient you can attack well; if you're not proficient, you can attack poorly, but nonetheless you can attack. With spells, however, either you can cast the spell or you simply can't at all. There's not really such a thing as being able to "sort of" cast a spell, except the scenarios covered in the previous paragraph.



                        Notably, spells such as counterspell and dispel magic require spellcasting ability checks, which by default no spellcaster is proficient in. However, Abjuration Wizards of 10th level get to add their proficiency bonus even to those checks. This implies that Abjurers are so good at those spells that they have become proficient in executing them better than other wizards, yet other wizards can still execute them to lesser effect. These aren't attacks or saves, but they indicate a niche where proficiency doesn't usually apply but could under certain circumstances.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$















                          5












                          5








                          5





                          $begingroup$

                          No such scenario exists for known, prepared, or innate spells.



                          If a spellcaster is intrinsically capable of casting a spell due to a class or racial feature that lets them know or prepare a spell or cast it innately, their proficiency bonus always applies to their spell attack bonus and spell save DC. For magic items or spell scrolls, there may be a fixed bonus that doesn't benefit from proficiency (such as +7 for a 3rd level spell scroll).



                          Note that with weapons, if you're proficient you can attack well; if you're not proficient, you can attack poorly, but nonetheless you can attack. With spells, however, either you can cast the spell or you simply can't at all. There's not really such a thing as being able to "sort of" cast a spell, except the scenarios covered in the previous paragraph.



                          Notably, spells such as counterspell and dispel magic require spellcasting ability checks, which by default no spellcaster is proficient in. However, Abjuration Wizards of 10th level get to add their proficiency bonus even to those checks. This implies that Abjurers are so good at those spells that they have become proficient in executing them better than other wizards, yet other wizards can still execute them to lesser effect. These aren't attacks or saves, but they indicate a niche where proficiency doesn't usually apply but could under certain circumstances.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          No such scenario exists for known, prepared, or innate spells.



                          If a spellcaster is intrinsically capable of casting a spell due to a class or racial feature that lets them know or prepare a spell or cast it innately, their proficiency bonus always applies to their spell attack bonus and spell save DC. For magic items or spell scrolls, there may be a fixed bonus that doesn't benefit from proficiency (such as +7 for a 3rd level spell scroll).



                          Note that with weapons, if you're proficient you can attack well; if you're not proficient, you can attack poorly, but nonetheless you can attack. With spells, however, either you can cast the spell or you simply can't at all. There's not really such a thing as being able to "sort of" cast a spell, except the scenarios covered in the previous paragraph.



                          Notably, spells such as counterspell and dispel magic require spellcasting ability checks, which by default no spellcaster is proficient in. However, Abjuration Wizards of 10th level get to add their proficiency bonus even to those checks. This implies that Abjurers are so good at those spells that they have become proficient in executing them better than other wizards, yet other wizards can still execute them to lesser effect. These aren't attacks or saves, but they indicate a niche where proficiency doesn't usually apply but could under certain circumstances.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited Mar 7 at 22:52

























                          answered Mar 7 at 19:04









                          BloodcinderBloodcinder

                          22.7k380139




                          22.7k380139



























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