Why can't we use freedom of speech and expression to incite people to rebel against government in India?Is it allowed to protest peacefully against the government on certain issues in India?Why are US, EU and human-rights NGOs silent against the killing of innocent kurdish people in Turkey?Wikipedia, Context and Freedom of SpeechWhy does India follow a 'No First Use Policy' for nuclear weapons?Why did the government of India prefer to keep silence on the matter of corruption in the armed forces?Why is the government of India probing Dr Zakir Naik for connection with terrorism after 26 years?Why did the government (s) of India fail to protect Babri Mosque from demolition by Hindus?Is it accurate to compare the nuclearization of North Korea with that of Pakistan and India? Why or why not?Why did Muslims and Hindus stay in India and Pakistan respectively rather than migrating?Why is not allowing homeless people in the streets considered against human rights?
Is all copper pipe pretty much the same?
How to deal with a cynical class?
Does splitting a potentially monolithic application into several smaller ones help prevent bugs?
Does the Bracer of Flying Daggers benefit from the Dueling fighting style?
Why doesn't the EU now just force the UK to choose between referendum and no-deal?
Question about partial fractions with irreducible quadratic factors
What to do when during a meeting client people start to fight (even physically) with each others?
What is the dot in “1.2.4."
What is the likely impact on flights of grounding an entire aircraft series?
Why do Australian milk farmers need to protest supermarkets' milk price?
If the Captain's screens are out, does he switch seats with the co-pilot?
what does the apostrophe mean in this notation?
Counter-example to the existence of left Bousfield localization of combinatorial model category
Do I need to leave some extra space available on the disk which my database log files reside, for log backup operations to successfully occur?
Single word request: Harming the benefactor
Is it illegal in Germany to take sick leave if you caused your own illness with food?
Latest web browser compatible with Windows 98
How to make readers know that my work has used a hidden constraint?
Replacing Windows 7 security updates with anti-virus?
"One can do his homework in the library"
How is the Swiss post e-voting system supposed to work, and how was it wrong?
Good allowance savings plan?
Are there situations where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?
How does Dispel Magic work against Stoneskin?
Why can't we use freedom of speech and expression to incite people to rebel against government in India?
Is it allowed to protest peacefully against the government on certain issues in India?Why are US, EU and human-rights NGOs silent against the killing of innocent kurdish people in Turkey?Wikipedia, Context and Freedom of SpeechWhy does India follow a 'No First Use Policy' for nuclear weapons?Why did the government of India prefer to keep silence on the matter of corruption in the armed forces?Why is the government of India probing Dr Zakir Naik for connection with terrorism after 26 years?Why did the government (s) of India fail to protect Babri Mosque from demolition by Hindus?Is it accurate to compare the nuclearization of North Korea with that of Pakistan and India? Why or why not?Why did Muslims and Hindus stay in India and Pakistan respectively rather than migrating?Why is not allowing homeless people in the streets considered against human rights?
In India we are not allowed to incite people to rebel against the government. Why are we not allowed to do so?
india human-rights freedom-of-speech
New contributor
|
show 4 more comments
In India we are not allowed to incite people to rebel against the government. Why are we not allowed to do so?
india human-rights freedom-of-speech
New contributor
4
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
6
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
3
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
6
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
5
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55
|
show 4 more comments
In India we are not allowed to incite people to rebel against the government. Why are we not allowed to do so?
india human-rights freedom-of-speech
New contributor
In India we are not allowed to incite people to rebel against the government. Why are we not allowed to do so?
india human-rights freedom-of-speech
india human-rights freedom-of-speech
New contributor
New contributor
edited Mar 7 at 18:26
Freiheit
998
998
New contributor
asked Mar 7 at 6:21
Arifa AkhtarArifa Akhtar
9513
9513
New contributor
New contributor
4
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
6
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
3
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
6
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
5
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55
|
show 4 more comments
4
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
6
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
3
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
6
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
5
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55
4
4
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
6
6
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
3
3
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
6
6
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
5
5
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55
|
show 4 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
Sedition, the technical legal term for what you're talking about, is prohibited by section 124A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). This dates all the way back to the colonial era, and was originally used to suppress people pushing for India's independence from Britain.
The Supreme Court of India ruled in 1962 that section 124A was constitutional, but that speech or actions only constitute sedition if it incites or tends to incite violence or disorder. There is apparently some ongoing issues with this, with allegations of various substance that people are being charged with sedition despite their speech and/or actions not meeting this standard. But that's not terribly relevant to your question, though it might explain why it is of importance to you.
Answering your question beyond that is difficult, however. Free speech is enshrined in India's constitution, and indeed in several international treaties and conventions that India is a part of. But the jurisprudence on the matter seems inconsistent, with courts of all levels (including the Supreme Court) tending to produce conflicting precedents. The simplest explanation may be historical momentum: this part of the IPC has been around for a long time, and it can be difficult to repeal or alter (or, at times, even find) laws that are so old. This gets exacerbated by the idea that, in principle, Supreme Court decisions have already made alterations to the law, and legislatures across the globe tend to be slow to make such formal alterations. This is apparent in the United States, too, where many laws, state constitutions, etc. formally contain provisions that have been held unconstitutional. These have no legal force, and nobody tries to enforce them, so formally altering them is basically just political theater to most people (though technically, if the US constitution was suitably amended they could be rendered valid once again), and so time better spent elsewhere.
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
|
show 2 more comments
I'm not familiar with India, but in general, guaranteed freedoms are never absolute. This would be a recipe for anarchy. The enforcing authority (the government) has to limit every freedom at least a little, or else that freedom could then be used to infringe upon other freedoms.
In the US, freedom of speech is pretty sacred and generally interpreted by the courts very expansively -- that's why it's so hard in the US to sue someone for libel or prosecute someone for treason. But even in the US there are serious limitations. As a basic example, it is illegal to use speech to directly incite a crime.
New contributor
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
add a comment |
Governments Crave Self-Preservation
The degree may vary, but all sufficiently large organisations eventually start gaining traits that promote its preservation. Some see it as a government's duty to ensure it doesn't get toppled easily, others will point out that governments without such measures are likely to, in the long run, be toppled more often, leading to an evolutionary selection of sorts for governments with such measures.
Restrictions on speech against inciting a toppling of a government are one example of such measure. (Others include monopoly on military force, on legislation and enforcement of law etc.)
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
add a comment |
In a democracy, you are allowed to advocate a complete overthrow of the existing government, via voting. While it is commonplace today, the peaceful transfer of power from one government to the next is just that - an existing government stepping down and allowing itself to be overthrown.
What you can't do is advocate violence, whether to overthrow a government or any other reason, because advocating a crime is generally not considered protected speech.
add a comment |
Since I have found that most of the answers are not India specific, I am adding to them.
In India we derive freedom of speech and expression from Article 19 (1) (a). This freedom is (like all the other 5) subjected to reasonable restrictions, 19 (2) specifically on freedom of speech. Clause (2) of the article puts 8 restriction on freedom of speech namely,
- Sovereignty and integrity of state
- Security of state
- Friendly relations with foreign states
- Public order
- Decency or morality
- Contempt of court
- Defamation
- Incitement of offence
If your speech is not hurting any of these then you're good and can oppose the government but inciting to rebel threatens point 1 IF government is legally established (as it has people's mandate) and also point 8 to some extent (IPC Section 124A, but it's removal is debated).
As sovereignty and democracy are basic elements of our constitution (Kesavanand Bharati case) it can't be amended and hence as long as democracy and rule of law is there you can't incite to rebel against a just and democratically elected government.
New contributor
add a comment |
Because there is a law prohibiting it!
'Free Speech' is an ideal. Many constitutions, written or unwritten, set great store by it.
But no country I know of allows unlimited free speech. They all draw the line when it is misrepresentation, harmful, obscene, incitement to criminal action etc.
I know we're discussing India. But it is interesting to consider whether America's beloved Second Amendment, often interpreted as enabling citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government, implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action.
New contributor
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
|
show 1 more comment
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "475"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Arifa Akhtar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpolitics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39249%2fwhy-cant-we-use-freedom-of-speech-and-expression-to-incite-people-to-rebel-agai%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Sedition, the technical legal term for what you're talking about, is prohibited by section 124A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). This dates all the way back to the colonial era, and was originally used to suppress people pushing for India's independence from Britain.
The Supreme Court of India ruled in 1962 that section 124A was constitutional, but that speech or actions only constitute sedition if it incites or tends to incite violence or disorder. There is apparently some ongoing issues with this, with allegations of various substance that people are being charged with sedition despite their speech and/or actions not meeting this standard. But that's not terribly relevant to your question, though it might explain why it is of importance to you.
Answering your question beyond that is difficult, however. Free speech is enshrined in India's constitution, and indeed in several international treaties and conventions that India is a part of. But the jurisprudence on the matter seems inconsistent, with courts of all levels (including the Supreme Court) tending to produce conflicting precedents. The simplest explanation may be historical momentum: this part of the IPC has been around for a long time, and it can be difficult to repeal or alter (or, at times, even find) laws that are so old. This gets exacerbated by the idea that, in principle, Supreme Court decisions have already made alterations to the law, and legislatures across the globe tend to be slow to make such formal alterations. This is apparent in the United States, too, where many laws, state constitutions, etc. formally contain provisions that have been held unconstitutional. These have no legal force, and nobody tries to enforce them, so formally altering them is basically just political theater to most people (though technically, if the US constitution was suitably amended they could be rendered valid once again), and so time better spent elsewhere.
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
|
show 2 more comments
Sedition, the technical legal term for what you're talking about, is prohibited by section 124A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). This dates all the way back to the colonial era, and was originally used to suppress people pushing for India's independence from Britain.
The Supreme Court of India ruled in 1962 that section 124A was constitutional, but that speech or actions only constitute sedition if it incites or tends to incite violence or disorder. There is apparently some ongoing issues with this, with allegations of various substance that people are being charged with sedition despite their speech and/or actions not meeting this standard. But that's not terribly relevant to your question, though it might explain why it is of importance to you.
Answering your question beyond that is difficult, however. Free speech is enshrined in India's constitution, and indeed in several international treaties and conventions that India is a part of. But the jurisprudence on the matter seems inconsistent, with courts of all levels (including the Supreme Court) tending to produce conflicting precedents. The simplest explanation may be historical momentum: this part of the IPC has been around for a long time, and it can be difficult to repeal or alter (or, at times, even find) laws that are so old. This gets exacerbated by the idea that, in principle, Supreme Court decisions have already made alterations to the law, and legislatures across the globe tend to be slow to make such formal alterations. This is apparent in the United States, too, where many laws, state constitutions, etc. formally contain provisions that have been held unconstitutional. These have no legal force, and nobody tries to enforce them, so formally altering them is basically just political theater to most people (though technically, if the US constitution was suitably amended they could be rendered valid once again), and so time better spent elsewhere.
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
|
show 2 more comments
Sedition, the technical legal term for what you're talking about, is prohibited by section 124A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). This dates all the way back to the colonial era, and was originally used to suppress people pushing for India's independence from Britain.
The Supreme Court of India ruled in 1962 that section 124A was constitutional, but that speech or actions only constitute sedition if it incites or tends to incite violence or disorder. There is apparently some ongoing issues with this, with allegations of various substance that people are being charged with sedition despite their speech and/or actions not meeting this standard. But that's not terribly relevant to your question, though it might explain why it is of importance to you.
Answering your question beyond that is difficult, however. Free speech is enshrined in India's constitution, and indeed in several international treaties and conventions that India is a part of. But the jurisprudence on the matter seems inconsistent, with courts of all levels (including the Supreme Court) tending to produce conflicting precedents. The simplest explanation may be historical momentum: this part of the IPC has been around for a long time, and it can be difficult to repeal or alter (or, at times, even find) laws that are so old. This gets exacerbated by the idea that, in principle, Supreme Court decisions have already made alterations to the law, and legislatures across the globe tend to be slow to make such formal alterations. This is apparent in the United States, too, where many laws, state constitutions, etc. formally contain provisions that have been held unconstitutional. These have no legal force, and nobody tries to enforce them, so formally altering them is basically just political theater to most people (though technically, if the US constitution was suitably amended they could be rendered valid once again), and so time better spent elsewhere.
Sedition, the technical legal term for what you're talking about, is prohibited by section 124A of the Indian Penal Code (IPC). This dates all the way back to the colonial era, and was originally used to suppress people pushing for India's independence from Britain.
The Supreme Court of India ruled in 1962 that section 124A was constitutional, but that speech or actions only constitute sedition if it incites or tends to incite violence or disorder. There is apparently some ongoing issues with this, with allegations of various substance that people are being charged with sedition despite their speech and/or actions not meeting this standard. But that's not terribly relevant to your question, though it might explain why it is of importance to you.
Answering your question beyond that is difficult, however. Free speech is enshrined in India's constitution, and indeed in several international treaties and conventions that India is a part of. But the jurisprudence on the matter seems inconsistent, with courts of all levels (including the Supreme Court) tending to produce conflicting precedents. The simplest explanation may be historical momentum: this part of the IPC has been around for a long time, and it can be difficult to repeal or alter (or, at times, even find) laws that are so old. This gets exacerbated by the idea that, in principle, Supreme Court decisions have already made alterations to the law, and legislatures across the globe tend to be slow to make such formal alterations. This is apparent in the United States, too, where many laws, state constitutions, etc. formally contain provisions that have been held unconstitutional. These have no legal force, and nobody tries to enforce them, so formally altering them is basically just political theater to most people (though technically, if the US constitution was suitably amended they could be rendered valid once again), and so time better spent elsewhere.
edited Mar 8 at 14:30
Community♦
1
1
answered Mar 7 at 8:31
zibadawa timmyzibadawa timmy
4,1671827
4,1671827
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
|
show 2 more comments
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
6
6
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
Funny; old laws (not only in India) should by default be easier to repeal (since they are more likely to be obsolete).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 10:25
2
2
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
@PeterA.Schneider I think that's how most people originally respond to the idea. But practical legislative and political realities tend to let them fall through the cracks: there's usually not a pressing need to do so, it's just decluttering (which in some instances is even bad, as exactly where things appear in the law changes how they are interpreted, and decluttering these without accounting for that can lead to significant and likely unintended consequences). So they do other things which the constituents find more pressing and important.
– zibadawa timmy
Mar 7 at 10:30
10
10
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
So law is like my software ... better don't change anything because it could have bad, unintended consequences ... bad ;-).
– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 7 at 11:11
2
2
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
Commenters here would enjoy learning about the Law Commission of India, which has existed since the middle 19th century, and which is currently in its 21st incarnation since 1955.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 12:14
3
3
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
I disagree that purging the code of unconstitutional law is "just political theater". Having unenforceable laws on the books confuses people about what the law really is. If a law has been ruled invalid, the legislature should amend it out of the statute books.
– Monty Harder
Mar 7 at 20:11
|
show 2 more comments
I'm not familiar with India, but in general, guaranteed freedoms are never absolute. This would be a recipe for anarchy. The enforcing authority (the government) has to limit every freedom at least a little, or else that freedom could then be used to infringe upon other freedoms.
In the US, freedom of speech is pretty sacred and generally interpreted by the courts very expansively -- that's why it's so hard in the US to sue someone for libel or prosecute someone for treason. But even in the US there are serious limitations. As a basic example, it is illegal to use speech to directly incite a crime.
New contributor
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
add a comment |
I'm not familiar with India, but in general, guaranteed freedoms are never absolute. This would be a recipe for anarchy. The enforcing authority (the government) has to limit every freedom at least a little, or else that freedom could then be used to infringe upon other freedoms.
In the US, freedom of speech is pretty sacred and generally interpreted by the courts very expansively -- that's why it's so hard in the US to sue someone for libel or prosecute someone for treason. But even in the US there are serious limitations. As a basic example, it is illegal to use speech to directly incite a crime.
New contributor
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
add a comment |
I'm not familiar with India, but in general, guaranteed freedoms are never absolute. This would be a recipe for anarchy. The enforcing authority (the government) has to limit every freedom at least a little, or else that freedom could then be used to infringe upon other freedoms.
In the US, freedom of speech is pretty sacred and generally interpreted by the courts very expansively -- that's why it's so hard in the US to sue someone for libel or prosecute someone for treason. But even in the US there are serious limitations. As a basic example, it is illegal to use speech to directly incite a crime.
New contributor
I'm not familiar with India, but in general, guaranteed freedoms are never absolute. This would be a recipe for anarchy. The enforcing authority (the government) has to limit every freedom at least a little, or else that freedom could then be used to infringe upon other freedoms.
In the US, freedom of speech is pretty sacred and generally interpreted by the courts very expansively -- that's why it's so hard in the US to sue someone for libel or prosecute someone for treason. But even in the US there are serious limitations. As a basic example, it is illegal to use speech to directly incite a crime.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Mar 7 at 10:50
EliEli
2012
2012
New contributor
New contributor
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
add a comment |
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
2
2
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
The difficulty of prosecuting someone for treason is not really to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with the fact that the U.S. constitution limits constructive treason with what is known as the Treason Clause.
– JdeBP
Mar 7 at 11:48
1
1
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
Exactly, freedoms are never absolute! In particular, your freedom ends when you use it to harm other people.
– Dr Sheldon
Mar 7 at 13:52
1
1
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
@JdeBP That's hardly unique to the US. The UK has many fewer protections for, e.g., freedom of speech, but there hasn't been a treason trial in the UK since 1945.
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:53
add a comment |
Governments Crave Self-Preservation
The degree may vary, but all sufficiently large organisations eventually start gaining traits that promote its preservation. Some see it as a government's duty to ensure it doesn't get toppled easily, others will point out that governments without such measures are likely to, in the long run, be toppled more often, leading to an evolutionary selection of sorts for governments with such measures.
Restrictions on speech against inciting a toppling of a government are one example of such measure. (Others include monopoly on military force, on legislation and enforcement of law etc.)
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
add a comment |
Governments Crave Self-Preservation
The degree may vary, but all sufficiently large organisations eventually start gaining traits that promote its preservation. Some see it as a government's duty to ensure it doesn't get toppled easily, others will point out that governments without such measures are likely to, in the long run, be toppled more often, leading to an evolutionary selection of sorts for governments with such measures.
Restrictions on speech against inciting a toppling of a government are one example of such measure. (Others include monopoly on military force, on legislation and enforcement of law etc.)
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
add a comment |
Governments Crave Self-Preservation
The degree may vary, but all sufficiently large organisations eventually start gaining traits that promote its preservation. Some see it as a government's duty to ensure it doesn't get toppled easily, others will point out that governments without such measures are likely to, in the long run, be toppled more often, leading to an evolutionary selection of sorts for governments with such measures.
Restrictions on speech against inciting a toppling of a government are one example of such measure. (Others include monopoly on military force, on legislation and enforcement of law etc.)
Governments Crave Self-Preservation
The degree may vary, but all sufficiently large organisations eventually start gaining traits that promote its preservation. Some see it as a government's duty to ensure it doesn't get toppled easily, others will point out that governments without such measures are likely to, in the long run, be toppled more often, leading to an evolutionary selection of sorts for governments with such measures.
Restrictions on speech against inciting a toppling of a government are one example of such measure. (Others include monopoly on military force, on legislation and enforcement of law etc.)
answered Mar 7 at 8:25
vicky_molokhvicky_molokh
834213
834213
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
add a comment |
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
Or you could see the other way around starting with the hypothesis that censorship is the natural/primitive state. It would mean that people/nations need to learn to overcome this, on their path toward civilization.
– JinSnow
Mar 7 at 11:23
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
I'm not sure I really buy this, especially as your headline makes it sound like power lust. All these governments who "crave self-preservation" but keep on running elections and getting voted out...
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 13:58
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
@DavidRicherby Governments getting voted out is pretty rare. In most cases the election changes the MPs, ministers and presidents, but makes them serve in the same government. In fact I have the impression (but not backed by statistics) that governments more often cease to exist through a revolution, constitutional etc. than through a referendum.
– vicky_molokh
Mar 7 at 14:08
3
3
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
@vicky_molokh: In part this depends how you define "government". In the UK, the word government is mostly used to mean the current executive branch - In UK terms the prime-minister and cabinet. This "government" is mostly thrown out after five or ten years. In other parts of the world the term "government" may apply to the whole system of constitution and all legislative and administrative branches - which are only thrown out wholesale in a revolution. In the UK, "government" getting voted out is commonplace.
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:31
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
OK, so you mean systems of government rather than actual governments. It kinda looks like I'm nitpicking over two letters, but I think you mean "Government craves" rather than "Governments crave".
– David Richerby
Mar 7 at 15:04
add a comment |
In a democracy, you are allowed to advocate a complete overthrow of the existing government, via voting. While it is commonplace today, the peaceful transfer of power from one government to the next is just that - an existing government stepping down and allowing itself to be overthrown.
What you can't do is advocate violence, whether to overthrow a government or any other reason, because advocating a crime is generally not considered protected speech.
add a comment |
In a democracy, you are allowed to advocate a complete overthrow of the existing government, via voting. While it is commonplace today, the peaceful transfer of power from one government to the next is just that - an existing government stepping down and allowing itself to be overthrown.
What you can't do is advocate violence, whether to overthrow a government or any other reason, because advocating a crime is generally not considered protected speech.
add a comment |
In a democracy, you are allowed to advocate a complete overthrow of the existing government, via voting. While it is commonplace today, the peaceful transfer of power from one government to the next is just that - an existing government stepping down and allowing itself to be overthrown.
What you can't do is advocate violence, whether to overthrow a government or any other reason, because advocating a crime is generally not considered protected speech.
In a democracy, you are allowed to advocate a complete overthrow of the existing government, via voting. While it is commonplace today, the peaceful transfer of power from one government to the next is just that - an existing government stepping down and allowing itself to be overthrown.
What you can't do is advocate violence, whether to overthrow a government or any other reason, because advocating a crime is generally not considered protected speech.
answered Mar 7 at 15:12
David RiceDavid Rice
4,3513418
4,3513418
add a comment |
add a comment |
Since I have found that most of the answers are not India specific, I am adding to them.
In India we derive freedom of speech and expression from Article 19 (1) (a). This freedom is (like all the other 5) subjected to reasonable restrictions, 19 (2) specifically on freedom of speech. Clause (2) of the article puts 8 restriction on freedom of speech namely,
- Sovereignty and integrity of state
- Security of state
- Friendly relations with foreign states
- Public order
- Decency or morality
- Contempt of court
- Defamation
- Incitement of offence
If your speech is not hurting any of these then you're good and can oppose the government but inciting to rebel threatens point 1 IF government is legally established (as it has people's mandate) and also point 8 to some extent (IPC Section 124A, but it's removal is debated).
As sovereignty and democracy are basic elements of our constitution (Kesavanand Bharati case) it can't be amended and hence as long as democracy and rule of law is there you can't incite to rebel against a just and democratically elected government.
New contributor
add a comment |
Since I have found that most of the answers are not India specific, I am adding to them.
In India we derive freedom of speech and expression from Article 19 (1) (a). This freedom is (like all the other 5) subjected to reasonable restrictions, 19 (2) specifically on freedom of speech. Clause (2) of the article puts 8 restriction on freedom of speech namely,
- Sovereignty and integrity of state
- Security of state
- Friendly relations with foreign states
- Public order
- Decency or morality
- Contempt of court
- Defamation
- Incitement of offence
If your speech is not hurting any of these then you're good and can oppose the government but inciting to rebel threatens point 1 IF government is legally established (as it has people's mandate) and also point 8 to some extent (IPC Section 124A, but it's removal is debated).
As sovereignty and democracy are basic elements of our constitution (Kesavanand Bharati case) it can't be amended and hence as long as democracy and rule of law is there you can't incite to rebel against a just and democratically elected government.
New contributor
add a comment |
Since I have found that most of the answers are not India specific, I am adding to them.
In India we derive freedom of speech and expression from Article 19 (1) (a). This freedom is (like all the other 5) subjected to reasonable restrictions, 19 (2) specifically on freedom of speech. Clause (2) of the article puts 8 restriction on freedom of speech namely,
- Sovereignty and integrity of state
- Security of state
- Friendly relations with foreign states
- Public order
- Decency or morality
- Contempt of court
- Defamation
- Incitement of offence
If your speech is not hurting any of these then you're good and can oppose the government but inciting to rebel threatens point 1 IF government is legally established (as it has people's mandate) and also point 8 to some extent (IPC Section 124A, but it's removal is debated).
As sovereignty and democracy are basic elements of our constitution (Kesavanand Bharati case) it can't be amended and hence as long as democracy and rule of law is there you can't incite to rebel against a just and democratically elected government.
New contributor
Since I have found that most of the answers are not India specific, I am adding to them.
In India we derive freedom of speech and expression from Article 19 (1) (a). This freedom is (like all the other 5) subjected to reasonable restrictions, 19 (2) specifically on freedom of speech. Clause (2) of the article puts 8 restriction on freedom of speech namely,
- Sovereignty and integrity of state
- Security of state
- Friendly relations with foreign states
- Public order
- Decency or morality
- Contempt of court
- Defamation
- Incitement of offence
If your speech is not hurting any of these then you're good and can oppose the government but inciting to rebel threatens point 1 IF government is legally established (as it has people's mandate) and also point 8 to some extent (IPC Section 124A, but it's removal is debated).
As sovereignty and democracy are basic elements of our constitution (Kesavanand Bharati case) it can't be amended and hence as long as democracy and rule of law is there you can't incite to rebel against a just and democratically elected government.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Mar 8 at 8:15
Aditya SinghAditya Singh
612
612
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Because there is a law prohibiting it!
'Free Speech' is an ideal. Many constitutions, written or unwritten, set great store by it.
But no country I know of allows unlimited free speech. They all draw the line when it is misrepresentation, harmful, obscene, incitement to criminal action etc.
I know we're discussing India. But it is interesting to consider whether America's beloved Second Amendment, often interpreted as enabling citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government, implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action.
New contributor
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
|
show 1 more comment
Because there is a law prohibiting it!
'Free Speech' is an ideal. Many constitutions, written or unwritten, set great store by it.
But no country I know of allows unlimited free speech. They all draw the line when it is misrepresentation, harmful, obscene, incitement to criminal action etc.
I know we're discussing India. But it is interesting to consider whether America's beloved Second Amendment, often interpreted as enabling citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government, implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action.
New contributor
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
|
show 1 more comment
Because there is a law prohibiting it!
'Free Speech' is an ideal. Many constitutions, written or unwritten, set great store by it.
But no country I know of allows unlimited free speech. They all draw the line when it is misrepresentation, harmful, obscene, incitement to criminal action etc.
I know we're discussing India. But it is interesting to consider whether America's beloved Second Amendment, often interpreted as enabling citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government, implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action.
New contributor
Because there is a law prohibiting it!
'Free Speech' is an ideal. Many constitutions, written or unwritten, set great store by it.
But no country I know of allows unlimited free speech. They all draw the line when it is misrepresentation, harmful, obscene, incitement to criminal action etc.
I know we're discussing India. But it is interesting to consider whether America's beloved Second Amendment, often interpreted as enabling citizens to overthrow a tyrannical government, implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Mar 7 at 12:53
Laurence PayneLaurence Payne
1214
1214
New contributor
New contributor
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
|
show 1 more comment
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Re: Second Amendment question yes, but it's more a free speech matter than a second amendment matter. U.S. Jurisprudence for Free Speech is that the intent of the speaker determines whether speech is protected or unprotected (i.e. could be prosecuted by government in someway), not the interpretation of the listener. Thus, there are circumstances where it is acceptable to discuss for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (i.e. a comedian, making a joke about killing the sitting President, is not guilty of threatening to kill the president, because his intent was to make fun of the idea
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:29
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
Whereas the modern trend is to assess culpability (even criminal culpability) by the degree of offence taken by the object of abuse.
– Laurence Payne
Mar 7 at 14:32
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
In the court of public opinion, yes. In the United States judicial system, attacking someone for something they said that is offensive (Fighting Words) is pretty hard to justify... Fighting Word Doctrine is better defined by what it is not, than what it is (no case on a Fighting Words Doctrine offense has been upheld by the Supreme Court... beyond the one that named the offense in the first place).
– hszmv
Mar 7 at 14:54
2
2
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
Re "consider whether [...] overthrow a tyrannical government [...] implies freedom to discuss and advocate such an action." Yes actually, in the US I'm pretty sure that it is entirely legal for those who believe the US government is tyrannical to discuss whether it should be overthrown and how that should be done. People do it all the time, very publically for some of them. Some have even publically advocated and expressly called for that to happen now. Anecdotally from experience reading news, it generally doesn't become legal matter until it starts or until violence is actively planned.
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:17
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
For an example, about 5-10 years ago there were 2nd amendment activists which were actively coordinating an effort to march thousands of armed citizens through the nation's capital in a peaceful protest, and one of the leaders was (if I recall correctly; it's hazy) also active in saying that citizens should overthrow the current government though he never attempted doing so. The response by the government was merely to say "Anyone who is carrying a firearm crossing the border into the capital will be arrested."
– Aaron
Mar 7 at 17:21
|
show 1 more comment
Arifa Akhtar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Arifa Akhtar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Arifa Akhtar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Arifa Akhtar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Politics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpolitics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39249%2fwhy-cant-we-use-freedom-of-speech-and-expression-to-incite-people-to-rebel-agai%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
4
I suspect almost all independent states have laws against sedition. In the US, for example, I believe it is punishable by 20 years in prison - 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000). "In 1981, Oscar López Rivera, a Puerto Rican Nationalist and Vietnam war veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and various other offenses."
– RedGrittyBrick
Mar 7 at 14:50
6
Probably for the same reason you can't shout "Fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
– Valorum
Mar 7 at 15:11
3
@Valorum Now I'm going to have to sick Popehat on you: popehat.com/2012/09/19/…
– jeffronicus
Mar 7 at 16:58
6
There's a big difference between espousing the flaws of the government and encouraging people to rise up against oppression, and in planning and plotting violent activities aimed at taking down government organizations. One of these is speech, which is protected, and the other is a planned assault, which is not protected.
– Zibbobz
Mar 7 at 20:21
5
@Valorum It's perfectly valid to shout Fire!!! if there actually is a fire.
– pipe
Mar 8 at 7:55