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“Lived a lion” or “there lived a lion” [on hold]

“We lived” vs “We were living” in the past tensePreposition and TenseThe confusion between “The” or “A” articleWhat's the difference between “has lived since” and “had lived since”?usage of ''there ''in a sentenceAre these definite time markers?What's the best solution for this choice?There is an increase or There is an increasedWhich tense to use in the following context?LIVE in the past or LIVED in the past

5

2

Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

OR

Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

Are the both correct?

grammar sentence-choice

share|improve this question

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

put on hold as off-topic by SamBC, Hellion, Jason Bassford, J.R.♦ yesterday

This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:

• "This question should include more details than have been provided here. Please edit to add the research you have done in your efforts to answer the question, or provide more context. See: Details, Please." – SamBC, Hellion, J.R.

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.

• 
  
  
  

  
  3
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This is not a proper question for ELL. The purpose of this site is not to solve quizzes for you.
  
  – virolino
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  7
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @virolino I see no reason why this is not a proper question. What if the OP is genuinely confused with the sentence?
  
  – Holyprogrammer
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  5
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Holyprogrammer: because the question does not show any efforts from OP to solve the problem. He just copy / pasted the question from his exercize book and posted it here. He should explain what he understood and what he did not understand. Otherwise, it is just his homework done by the community. Most of his other questions are very similar: giving us quizzes.
  
  – virolino
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Yes, they are both correct. In your first example, subject "lion" is postposed to after the verb. In the second, the subject is "there".
  
  – BillJ
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @virolino Ok, so I reviewed some of his questions, and I see what you mean. I flagged one of his posts for moderator intervention
  
  – Holyprogrammer
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 5 more comments

5

2

Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

OR

Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

Are the both correct?

grammar sentence-choice

share|improve this question

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

put on hold as off-topic by SamBC, Hellion, Jason Bassford, J.R.♦ yesterday

This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:

• "This question should include more details than have been provided here. Please edit to add the research you have done in your efforts to answer the question, or provide more context. See: Details, Please." – SamBC, Hellion, J.R.

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.

• 
  
  
  

  
  3
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This is not a proper question for ELL. The purpose of this site is not to solve quizzes for you.
  
  – virolino
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  7
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @virolino I see no reason why this is not a proper question. What if the OP is genuinely confused with the sentence?
  
  – Holyprogrammer
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  5
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Holyprogrammer: because the question does not show any efforts from OP to solve the problem. He just copy / pasted the question from his exercize book and posted it here. He should explain what he understood and what he did not understand. Otherwise, it is just his homework done by the community. Most of his other questions are very similar: giving us quizzes.
  
  – virolino
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Yes, they are both correct. In your first example, subject "lion" is postposed to after the verb. In the second, the subject is "there".
  
  – BillJ
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @virolino Ok, so I reviewed some of his questions, and I see what you mean. I flagged one of his posts for moderator intervention
  
  – Holyprogrammer
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 5 more comments

Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

OR

Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

Are the both correct?

grammar sentence-choice

share|improve this question

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

share|improve this question

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

share|improve this question

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

edited yesterday

BillJ

6,0731718

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

asked yesterday

Kumar sadhuKumar sadhu

1

2 Answers
2

active

oldest

votes

10

Once upon a time there lived* a lion in a forest.

English clauses which are not imperatives** must have a subject. Sometimes we need to use a ‘dummy’ or ‘empty’ or ‘artificial’ subject when there is no subject attached to the verb, and where the real subject is somewhere else in the clause. There is one of the two dummy subjects used in English.

Regarding the first sentence, it’s also correct. This grammatical construction is called subject–verb inversion.

Beside the bed stood a lamp.

Down the street lived the man and his wife without anyone suspecting that they were really spies for a foreign power.

In the vase are some flowers.

On a side note, subject-verb inversion is usually impossible if the subject is a weak (non-stressed) definite pronoun. You can’t write

Long long ago in the dense forest lived it.

---

*It’s a common literary technique used to begin some children's stories written in a traditional style.

There once lived a poor widow who had a beautiful daughter.

At the edge of a great forest there once lived a king with his beautiful daughters.

There once lived a woman who was so fat, she couldn't fit in a taxi.

**An imperative sentence/clause gives a command/request to do something:

Sit down!

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Especially for storytelling, it helps with framing. When I say "A lion lives in the forest", you're most likely thinking about a lion in a forest (narrow view). But if I say "There lives a lion in the forest", you're more likely to think about a forest with a lion in it (a wider view). This isn't a literal rule of English, but it is related to how people convert a written story into a mental image, which is the main goal of storytelling. Consider the difference between "once upon a time" (= don't worry about the timeframe) or "some time ago" (= it's relevant to consider the timeframe)
  
  – Flater
  yesterday
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Flater wow, it's interesting to know, thank you
  
  – Andrew Tobilko
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It's really weird knowing I've used this rule for 33 years and never once thought of there as a dummy subject
  
  – Mark
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

[1] Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

[2] Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

They are both OK.

In [1] the subject is "a lion", which has been postposed to a position after the verb, cf. a lion lived. A postposed element occurs in a position that tends to receive greater phonological prominence; the emphasis here is on the lion, not on when or where it lived.

In [2] "there lived a lion" is a presentational clause with "there" as subject.

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

add a comment | 

10

Once upon a time there lived* a lion in a forest.

English clauses which are not imperatives** must have a subject. Sometimes we need to use a ‘dummy’ or ‘empty’ or ‘artificial’ subject when there is no subject attached to the verb, and where the real subject is somewhere else in the clause. There is one of the two dummy subjects used in English.

Regarding the first sentence, it’s also correct. This grammatical construction is called subject–verb inversion.

Beside the bed stood a lamp.

Down the street lived the man and his wife without anyone suspecting that they were really spies for a foreign power.

In the vase are some flowers.

On a side note, subject-verb inversion is usually impossible if the subject is a weak (non-stressed) definite pronoun. You can’t write

Long long ago in the dense forest lived it.

---

*It’s a common literary technique used to begin some children's stories written in a traditional style.

There once lived a poor widow who had a beautiful daughter.

At the edge of a great forest there once lived a king with his beautiful daughters.

There once lived a woman who was so fat, she couldn't fit in a taxi.

**An imperative sentence/clause gives a command/request to do something:

Sit down!

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Especially for storytelling, it helps with framing. When I say "A lion lives in the forest", you're most likely thinking about a lion in a forest (narrow view). But if I say "There lives a lion in the forest", you're more likely to think about a forest with a lion in it (a wider view). This isn't a literal rule of English, but it is related to how people convert a written story into a mental image, which is the main goal of storytelling. Consider the difference between "once upon a time" (= don't worry about the timeframe) or "some time ago" (= it's relevant to consider the timeframe)
  
  – Flater
  yesterday
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Flater wow, it's interesting to know, thank you
  
  – Andrew Tobilko
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It's really weird knowing I've used this rule for 33 years and never once thought of there as a dummy subject
  
  – Mark
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

10

Once upon a time there lived* a lion in a forest.

English clauses which are not imperatives** must have a subject. Sometimes we need to use a ‘dummy’ or ‘empty’ or ‘artificial’ subject when there is no subject attached to the verb, and where the real subject is somewhere else in the clause. There is one of the two dummy subjects used in English.

Regarding the first sentence, it’s also correct. This grammatical construction is called subject–verb inversion.

Beside the bed stood a lamp.

Down the street lived the man and his wife without anyone suspecting that they were really spies for a foreign power.

In the vase are some flowers.

On a side note, subject-verb inversion is usually impossible if the subject is a weak (non-stressed) definite pronoun. You can’t write

Long long ago in the dense forest lived it.

---

*It’s a common literary technique used to begin some children's stories written in a traditional style.

There once lived a poor widow who had a beautiful daughter.

At the edge of a great forest there once lived a king with his beautiful daughters.

There once lived a woman who was so fat, she couldn't fit in a taxi.

**An imperative sentence/clause gives a command/request to do something:

Sit down!

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Especially for storytelling, it helps with framing. When I say "A lion lives in the forest", you're most likely thinking about a lion in a forest (narrow view). But if I say "There lives a lion in the forest", you're more likely to think about a forest with a lion in it (a wider view). This isn't a literal rule of English, but it is related to how people convert a written story into a mental image, which is the main goal of storytelling. Consider the difference between "once upon a time" (= don't worry about the timeframe) or "some time ago" (= it's relevant to consider the timeframe)
  
  – Flater
  yesterday
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Flater wow, it's interesting to know, thank you
  
  – Andrew Tobilko
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It's really weird knowing I've used this rule for 33 years and never once thought of there as a dummy subject
  
  – Mark
  yesterday
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Once upon a time there lived* a lion in a forest.

English clauses which are not imperatives** must have a subject. Sometimes we need to use a ‘dummy’ or ‘empty’ or ‘artificial’ subject when there is no subject attached to the verb, and where the real subject is somewhere else in the clause. There is one of the two dummy subjects used in English.

Regarding the first sentence, it’s also correct. This grammatical construction is called subject–verb inversion.

Beside the bed stood a lamp.

Down the street lived the man and his wife without anyone suspecting that they were really spies for a foreign power.

In the vase are some flowers.

On a side note, subject-verb inversion is usually impossible if the subject is a weak (non-stressed) definite pronoun. You can’t write

Long long ago in the dense forest lived it.

---

*It’s a common literary technique used to begin some children's stories written in a traditional style.

There once lived a poor widow who had a beautiful daughter.

At the edge of a great forest there once lived a king with his beautiful daughters.

There once lived a woman who was so fat, she couldn't fit in a taxi.

**An imperative sentence/clause gives a command/request to do something:

Sit down!

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

answered yesterday

Andrew TobilkoAndrew Tobilko

928519

2

[1] Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

[2] Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

They are both OK.

In [1] the subject is "a lion", which has been postposed to a position after the verb, cf. a lion lived. A postposed element occurs in a position that tends to receive greater phonological prominence; the emphasis here is on the lion, not on when or where it lived.

In [2] "there lived a lion" is a presentational clause with "there" as subject.

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

add a comment | 

2

[1] Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

[2] Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

They are both OK.

In [1] the subject is "a lion", which has been postposed to a position after the verb, cf. a lion lived. A postposed element occurs in a position that tends to receive greater phonological prominence; the emphasis here is on the lion, not on when or where it lived.

In [2] "there lived a lion" is a presentational clause with "there" as subject.

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

add a comment | 

[1] Long long ago in the dense forest lived a lion.

[2] Long long ago in the dense forest there lived a lion.

They are both OK.

In [1] the subject is "a lion", which has been postposed to a position after the verb, cf. a lion lived. A postposed element occurs in a position that tends to receive greater phonological prominence; the emphasis here is on the lion, not on when or where it lived.

In [2] "there lived a lion" is a presentational clause with "there" as subject.

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

share|improve this answer

edited yesterday

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718

answered yesterday

BillJBillJ

6,0731718